integrated or pre/power or...

[chinasky]

Hi,
I have a B410 and a B110 playing on ProAc Studio 140's. I enjoy the combination very much but got a feeling the ProAcs could use some more power. Would an upgrate to a B130 help or would I benefit more from buying a poweramp and use the 110 as a preamp? I have an option to buy a demo B330, would that work with the 110?
greetings, H.

[vlach]

The real question is: can you trust the Densen power output specifications. I too would consider using my B110 as a preamp with a Densen power amp, however i am suspicious about their claimed power ratings, and here's why; I recently purchased the B110 after owning the Naim Nait 5i (50W/channel), and while i still had both integrateds in my possession, i did several tests:

Test A
To compare the power amp sections of both integrateds, I connected the "preamp out" of the B110 to the HT bypass input of the Naim Nait (bypassing the Naim preamp) and had to significantly lower the volume of the B110 in order to achieve the same output level in comparison to when the B110 was driving my speakers. This means for a given preamp output level, the Naim drives my speakers effortlessly while the B110 can barely be heard and needs to be cranked much, much higher in order to obtain the same output level. I have System Audio Ranger speakers (4 Ohm, 87 dB) and while the Naim Nait stays cool at normal listening levels, the B110 is running very, very hot. Also, while the volume level of the Naim is at approx the 9 o'clock position for normal listening levels, i have to push the B110 to the 140 position (out of 200), that's equivalent to the 2 o'clock position to reach the same output level!

Test B
When using the Naim Nait for the front left & right speakers in my HT setup, i have to drop the front left & right channels in the AVR settings to -9 while the center & surrounds channels are set to 0, this in order to achieve an equal output level from all channels from the listening position. To my surprise, when removing the Naim Nait and inserting the B110, i had to bring up the front left & right channels settings in my AVR all the way back to 0 to achieve the same levels. This tells you how powerful the amp section of the Naim Nait is and how weak the power amp section of the B110 is. 60W/channel? Not a chance. More like 8-10W/channel. Disapointing for a product costing so much.

Now for sound quality. In all fairness to the B110, when volume-matched with the Naim Nait, the B110 has a fuller, wider and deeper soundstage, more 3D-like. Overall the SQ of the B110 is smoother and sweeter and is clearly more refined. The Naim wins in terms of focus, dynamics, grip & grunt however. In terms of beauty, the B110 looks like a supermodel...but with an iron deficiency i'm afraid

[Thomas Sillesen]

Dear Vlach,

The observations you remark, is related to the preamp section of the B-110. It is by deliberate design that you have to turn volume relative high, for "action" to happen. This is because some customers lives i areas with extreme low background noise. (while most customers lives in cities and other areas with higher background noise). For some customers in areas with low background noise the level 40 is therefore enough to hear music in low listening level, while customers in areas with normal background noise, will hear nearly no sound (or no sound at all) with the volume on 40.

Regarding the heat of the amp, the design of the Densen amps, is done so the cabinets deliberately acts as heat sink. Therefore a Densen cabinet will allways be warmer than amplifiers from competitors using a more traditional design with traditional heat sinks.

To judge the output of an amplifier, you do not evaluate this based on the heat of the cabinet, or on how high the volume needs to be turned. It is evaluated on the maximum listening level you can achieve before the amplifier distorts the signal (clipping). And we rate very conservative poweroutput, which can be seen in numberous reviews where measurements has shown that the actually output power is higher than the specifications we have given.

[Thomas Sillesen]

Hi Chinasky,

The preamp stage of the B-110 is in my opinion very good, and as such will be a good match for a B-330.

[vlach]

Dear Vlach,

The observations you remark, is related to the preamp section of the B-110. It is by deliberate design that you have to turn volume relative high, for "action" to happen. This is because some customers lives i areas with extreme low background noise. (while most customers lives in cities and other areas with higher background noise). For some customers in areas with low background noise the level 40 is therefore enough to hear music in low listening level, while customers in areas with normal background noise, will hear nearly no sound (or no sound at all) with the volume on 40.

Regarding the heat of the amp, the design of the Densen amps, is done so the cabinets deliberately acts as heat sink. Therefore a Densen cabinet will allways be warmer than amplifiers from competitors using a more traditional design with traditional heat sinks.

To judge the output of an amplifier, you do not evaluate this based on the heat of the cabinet, or on how high the volume needs to be turned. It is evaluated on the maximum listening level you can achieve before the amplifier distorts the signal (clipping). And we rate very conservative poweroutput, which can be seen in numberous reviews where measurements has shown that the actually output power is higher than the specifications we have given.

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for taking the time to reply and provide your clarifications, i appreciate it. In all honesty, i did not drive both amps to clipping levels to compare which stayed loudest & cleanest. Having said that, i am still interested in the idea of using the B110 as a preamp with a separate power amp. In your opinion would the B-110/305 combo offer any improvement over the B110 on its own given both options have the same rated output power?

Thanks, Alex

[Thomas Sillesen]

Hi Alex,

The B-305 is in essence the B-110 powerstage. So the only real benefit, will be the benefit of bi-amping.

I would recommend using either B-320 or B-320. Both will match the preamp stage of the B-110 perfect, and be a good update

[vlach]

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for the advice. I am also interested in the external power supply option but am unable to view anything under the "accessories" section of your website. Would the power supply improve the preamp stage more than the powerstage?

Thanks, Alex

[Thomas Sillesen]

Hi Alex,

Yes, exactely; it primarely improves the preamp stage.

[AudioFan]

Hello Thomas!

Now i have enjoyed my Densen-set up for over a year, and it´s good. But now a begin to think about an upgrade. I have my eyes on a pair of Sonus Faber Liuto towers, but as you know they only have one pair of binding posts and can´t be be-amped. So what is my options?

If i get a B-320 or B-330 i could use my B-130 as a pre-amp...

... or is it possible to convert a B-130 to the new B-230...

... or is it better to sell the B-130 and buy a B-230 (if it´s out yet)...

... or is it better to get the damn speakers first and wait with amplifier-speculations.

[AudioFan]

Well!

Now i have acquired the new speakers. They sounded great right from the box and they keep getting better by the hour. That brings me back to my questions that i wrote above. What is my options if i want to upgrade the amplifier?

[Thomas Sillesen]

If it sounds great, and you are happy about the level of max power of the amp, you could consider upgrading the CD player to the B-440+. The distributor can make such an upgrade. Upgrading on the amplifier side, would be to biamp with either the B-310 or B-320.

[AudioFan]

Hello!

Yes, upgrade the CD-player would be an option. BUT the Sonus faber can´t be beamped. They only have one set of terminals.

[Thomas Sillesen]

Hello!
BUT the Sonus faber can´t be beamped. They only have one set of terminals.

Good point